Curse

Tarus From Taros · Jan 25, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

What is the point in putting a limit on faction? I know many people were aggitated to only be able to save up 10k for the pvp weekend. Many of those people didn't even bother playing the Assasin or Ritualist because of it. And who can blame them? What is the point in running a character who is obviously going to be flawed in a competition? Isn't it bad enough that we will have to figure out decent builds with these characters alone, why make it even more difficult by only allowing us to save up only a handfull of skills in faction?

Putting a limit on faction leaves PVP players at a disadvantage that PVE players don't have. Pve players will simply be able to save up skill points for factions release and then use these points to get the new skills. That's pretty obvious. So why isn't there a limit on skill points then?

Anyhow, I feel that faction is earned and it should be yours to do with any way you like. I know there must be plenty of people out there who have everything in PVP unlocked like me who are just wasting faction for no good reason. So if you agree with me please reply so hopefully Anet will see this post and change this cap. And if you don't agree please post your comments too.

tafy69 · Jan 25, 2006, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Pure PvP people will probably be slower to aquire all the skills, how does that change anything?

If a Pve Player saves up skillpoints to unlock new skills for pvp, isnt he a pvper?

He would need to make an assasin and unlock assasin skills to use that assasin pve character in pvp.

Tarus From Taros · Jan 25, 2006, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Actually acquiring skills via PVE or PVP is pretty similar in time 15k Experience at Level 20 vs. 1k faction.
When i say PVE Player or PVP player i'm not implying thats ALL they do. But Players in PVP who don't PVE at all should have just as much opportunity to unlock skills as those who Play PVE and use skill points.

And no, he wouldnt need to make an Assasin, he'd only need to change secondary.....

art_ · Jan 25, 2006, 11:13 AM // 11:13

If there was no limit on faction, there would be a business farming high faction accounts to sell on ebay.

Tarus From Taros · Jan 25, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

That would make just as much sense as a business farming high skill point account or high rank accounts. Sorry, that excuse isn't good enough.

art_ · Jan 25, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Farming high rank accounts requires knowing the right people to tag along with. (also buying r9+ accounts is lame, and people will know that you aren' rank 9 when you suck, and when people who knew the previous owner whisper you.)

Farming high skill point accounts requires a little effort, but im suprised it doesnt happen.

Farming faction would be easily exploited. e.g Make a programme that just automatically hits enter mission when ever u are in CA and then just repeat when your team loses. A lot of 3 people teams with one 'afker' beat 4 people in CA.

SaintGreg · Jan 25, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

It seems every time there is a thread about the faction limit everyone for it always has to compare it to the non-existant limit on skill points. The two are compltely different, if you want to make a thread about increasing the faction cap, give a good reason for it, not just "PvE players can save up unlimited skill points and unlock everything at realease time" ; bring something new to the tablethat hasn't been said hunderds of times before.

That said, I do think that the faction cap should either be raised or eliminated. And at the very least make it so that your total faction still goes up even when you are maxed out, seeing the +20 faction numbers is great for seeing when people die, and It would be interesting to know how much faction you could have gotten had you not has everything unlocked.

toastgodsupreme · Jan 25, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Wtf, who the HELL would farm faction? To do what? You can't sell it.

I agree, up the cap. Maybe there aren't skills right now that I'd like to unlock, but I'm sure there'll be more later. Why 10k? What an arbitrary number to set it at.

Sarus · Jan 25, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

What is the point in putting a limit on faction?

As far as I can tell the only reason for the faction limit is because Anet doesn't want PvP players to be able to unlock all of the new class skills when chapter 2 comes out on the first day. They want to force PvP players to either grind faction, grind skill points, or grind quests. It doesn't really make sense to me from a financial stand point because unlike games such as WoW with monthly subscription fees there is no reward for forcing people to play GW longer through grind. The only thing I can come up with is that the system is in place to appease the PvE players that complain when PvP players get things "too easily."

Sparrow · Jan 25, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Yeah I'm sure Sarus is right, it's the same reason they don't want to sell versions of the game will all skills auto-unlocked for PvP. As Gaile said in a previous thread, some people just think it's "unfair." I don't really understand that point of view, but neither do I have much hope things will change.

I don't like the faction cap but I'm willing to live with it. I was able to make about 40K over the beta weekend, so plus the 10K I had saved up I unlocked a decent number of Assassin skills / runes. Once Ch. 2 comes out I expect to have everything unlocked in a week or two. So for me it's not really that big of an issue.

But I do often wonder how much faction I would have accumulated were it not for the faction cap.

I suppose we PvPers could make farming characters and start hording skill points. But that sounds like a real drag, and I doubt most of us would do that.

Tarus From Taros · Jan 25, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

"As far as I can tell the only reason for the faction limit is because Anet doesn't want PvP players to be able to unlock all of the new class skills when chapter 2 comes out on the first day."

You're probably right Sarus, i'm going to give you a scenario just to show how unfair this is.

My friend has a Warrior with over 150 skill points left on him. He is all straight PVE, but say he decides he wants to play lots of PVP. First day of the new chapter he PVE's his way to the new NPCS that allow you to switch Secondarys. Next, all he has to do is go to the skills NPCS. Voila, he now has all the Assassin and Ritualists runes unlocked. Even if you dont have that many skill points its still a disadvantage to those who strictly PVP, since you can buy as many skills as you want as long as you have the gold and points to do it.

Oh and for Saint Greg, i've only seen that point made once in this part of the forums...and it wasnt even based on the original topic.

Weezer_Blue · Jan 25, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

As far as I can tell the only reason for the faction limit is because Anet doesn't want PvP players to be able to unlock all of the new class skills when chapter 2 comes out on the first day. They want to force PvP players to either grind faction, grind skill points, or grind quests. It doesn't really make sense to me from a financial stand point because unlike games such as WoW with monthly subscription fees there is no reward for forcing people to play GW longer through grind. The only thing I can come up with is that the system is in place to appease the PvE players that complain when PvP players get things "too easily."

I agree with every word.

Makkert · Jan 26, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

As far as I can tell the only reason for the faction limit is because Anet doesn't want PvP players to be able to unlock all of the new class skills when chapter 2 comes out on the first day. They want to force PvP players to either grind faction, grind skill points, or grind quests. It doesn't really make sense to me from a financial stand point because unlike games such as WoW with monthly subscription fees there is no reward for forcing people to play GW longer through grind. The only thing I can come up with is that the system is in place to appease the PvE players that complain when PvP players get things "too easily."

Maybe linked to this idea:
Maybe ANet wants to give newer players time to learn the skills and not be overwhelmed by all new skills by established (end-game) pvp players?

Really, I don't know...Must be some philosophy behind this, only guessing here...

dawnrain · Jan 26, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

But all uncapping faction does is move the time frame of when you can "grind." Uncapped you can grind today, capped you have to wait till tomorrow.

If you want to see a real discrepancy between faction unlocking and unlocking through an RP character, calculate how long it takes to unlock a superior absorption rune via faction versus via normal PvE gameplay.

Maybe ANet's biggest fault is that they're trying to create a game where gamers play because they enjoy the gameplay. As opposed to creating a game where people play for virtual rewards.

Star Gazer · Jan 26, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

here are some interesting questions: when factions come out will they:

1) have a secondary prof change quest already in place?
2) beable to warp a char that has ember light camp to buy all the skills?

If so, All you PvPers can suck on that Faction farming, while i have 120ish or so skill points on my warrior that I have been waiting to use >

trevok · Jan 27, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Obviously you won't be able to buy chapter 2 skills at Ember Light Camp. That makes no sense. And obviously there isn't going to be a skill trainer in the first city of Cantha that you can go and buy all your skills from. If you switch your secondary you'll have to play through chapter 2 to get the new skills with all your accumulated skill points. That won't allow a PvE player to start with all the new skills on the first day.

To balance this, they put a cap on faction so PvP players can't just go ahead and unlock everything and have a huge advantage over a PvE primary player who has to play through all of chapter 2 to get the skills.

It's for balance.

Sparrow · Jan 27, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Of course once a character with 150 skill points does reach the profession change quest and the "all skills" trainer -- they'll probably have around 175 skill points at that point -- they could then unlock everything all at once. I guess the equivalent to that in the PvP world would be if faction weren't capped, but you had to get Rank 3 in Cantha before you could use the "overflow." From that perspective I would say it is merely the illusion of balance.

Has anyone considered the possibility that they would prevent using "old world" skill points to unlock "new world" skills? It seems unlikely, but that would provide something closer to balance. Certainly, I wouldn't be in favor of such a policy, but at least it would be "fair."

Personally, I wouldn't mind if PvE characters with oodles of skill points could unlock every new skill on day one. Heck, I'd be in favor of having all accounts coming fully pre-unlocked (ie, get rid of unlocking). But we all know that ain't happening. Bottom line, the faction limit does seem a bit arbitrary and punitive.

Tarus From Taros · Jan 30, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by trevok

It's for balance.

Balance my ass. If you want it to be "balanced" then Anet needs to do one of two things.

1. Put a limit on how many Cap Sigs and Skill points a person can have.
Example: I can only have 4 skill points if I have 2 Cap Sigs but if I had zero sigs I'd be able to hold 10 skill points...

2. Take the limit off of faction! Now it's fair. Honestly I see this as being the only real option. Putting unneccasary limits on players accomplishments only makes them want to play less because obviously, it's less rewarding. By having these limits players are forced to grind anytime a new item can be unlocked via faction.

If people think it would be "unfair" for priests to have all the skills on the battle aisles then Anet could always put a preist with ALL the new skills in an area equally difficult to reach as the new skill trainer with ALL the new skills.
But honestly this isn't really needed. PVE Skill acqusition should be more difficult than PVP because it's much more beneficial to get the skills for those PVE characters and have them unlocked for PVP.

Phades · Jan 30, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Maybe linked to this idea:
Maybe ANet wants to give newer players time to learn the skills and not be overwhelmed by all new skills by established (end-game) pvp players?

Really, I don't know...Must be some philosophy behind this, only guessing here...

Chances are newer players are going to get overwhelmed anyway and not all skill combinations work together properly in every situation. The whole point of testing and learning is having the tools to do so available. Without them its merely just theorycraft until practical application is had. That is not to say that there is no difference betwen individual gamers, even experienced ones, but that is based more on different apptitudes the individaul had before they started playing the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawnrain

If you want to see a real discrepancy between faction unlocking and unlocking through an RP character, calculate how long it takes to unlock a superior absorption rune via faction versus via normal PvE gameplay.

You can't because one is random while the other is not. A more fair comparison would be an example of market economics within the pve realm for the runes. Considering the economy is rather non-existant, due to the constant influx of resources and virtually zero resources taken out, its a rather pointless comparison skewed in favor of faction. Solo farming skill points is faster than grinding the faction in most instances as well. A byproduct of the solo farming also nets a sizable amount of coin, which more than compensates for the skill costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawnrain

Maybe ANet's biggest fault is that they're trying to create a game where gamers play because they enjoy the gameplay. As opposed to creating a game where people play for virtual rewards.

So, you are saying its ANET's fault for including a pve side to the game? I cant say i agree with that at all, but people trying to compare direct competition to the grind are at fault here not ANET.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trevok

Obviously you won't be able to buy chapter 2 skills at Ember Light Camp. That makes no sense. And obviously there isn't going to be a skill trainer in the first city of Cantha that you can go and buy all your skills from. If you switch your secondary you'll have to play through chapter 2 to get the new skills with all your accumulated skill points. That won't allow a PvE player to start with all the new skills on the first day.

To balance this, they put a cap on faction so PvP players can't just go ahead and unlock everything and have a huge advantage over a PvE primary player who has to play through all of chapter 2 to get the skills.

It's for balance.

First off i hope you are not trying to compare AI to human reaction in competition. Secondly, there are going to be low level areas in ch2, for all those primary assasin and ritualist pve characters to play through. These areas will pose absolutely no challenge to a fully equiped level 20 character with existing skill sets. The amount of time spent town hopping and running through the content will be rather minimal. The thing is, its not balanced. It is only forcing one style of play over another. If pvp players had a choice for fast accrual of skills between the two, any who did not have an existing pve character with a large pool of skill points would simply just opt to store up large sums of faction and achieve the exact same thing. What will happen instead, assuming WPE events in the future do not allow continued unlocks to happen, will just see waves of people being rushed throug the ch2 content by level 20 runners just like can be witnessed now with the ch1 content. That is not a good reason to try and sell the idea that they are actually experiencing or playing through the content as intended. If they are allowed to happen, then it is essentially no different than allowing faction to be uncapped now.

The only thing i see that might slow or stop the run style of play is the "factions" play preventing people from one faction or another from gaining acess to a particular town in order to aquire skills. This of course will cause cries of bloody murder from the pve community as they are forced to pvp in order to gain what many feel as their right to everything as they progress through the pve normally. This is not much different from the commentaries seen before regarding the worlds at war and possible imbalances between the different geographic regions.

Daneish · Jan 30, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

T-minus 10 seconds until Dead Horse-beating commences.

The Beta weekend offered a valid opportunity for significant account unlocking. Myself, I didn't play extensively, but I still unlocked the entirety of the new rune sets and a handful of skills otherwise. There will certainly be another Beta weekend or two before the release of the game; that's just how ANet does things.

The beta weekend provided a solid jumpstart toward players unlocking new assassin/ritualist skills for PvP purposes. One can't argue that this event didn't exist to appease PvP players.

Raising - not eliminating - the faction cap seems the most viable modification to the current system. The question is by how much. I would think that tripling the faction cap, post beta-weekend, would do the job. That's 10 elites, 30 "common" skills, or just over 6 completely unlocked rune sets. Factor in that most "hardcorp" pvp'ers will have the majority of assassin and ritualist unlocked following another beta weekend, 30,000 faction, at game launch, is a huge chunk of the new primary profession skills.